Let Mercy Triumph Over Judgment: Law, Mercy, and Violence in Judges (Dr. Jillian Ross)

00:00:01
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm joined today by doctor Gillian Ross. She's a professor of Biblical studies at Liberty University, and she wrote an article for the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Study that we're going to be discussing today as well as just discussing the Book of Judges a little bit more generally. But the title of the article is let Mercy Triumph over Judgment. A Theology of Law and Judges. And I found the article really helpful and pretty fascinating. And you all know I'm an Old Testament geek anyway, so I thought it'd be a great idea to have doctor Ross on to discuss this. So welcome to the program. Thanks for being here.

00:01:04
Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for having me. It's a joy to be with you. And it's always a joy to talk about judges with a fellow old testamate nerd.

00:01:12
Speaker 1: Yeah that's right or whatever. Yeah, exactly. I really appreciated the article because I think it helped address some of the challenges that I think people have when they read through the Book of Judges. I'm done a fair amount of work on the Jeff in the narrative, and so that narrative in and of itself, or Jeff that gives this vow that he's going to sacrifice his only daughter, you know if God, Well, he doesn't actually vow that, but it ends up that way. He carries out this vow and you kind of sit back and you go, man, what's going on here? Like it seems like such an ethical and theological dilemma. And I really feel like your article helps to frame this out a little bit. So maybe give a little bit of an introduction into what you're arguing in the article, and then we can talk a little bit more about some specific instances and judges.

00:02:05
Speaker 2: Sure, thank you. So the article is addressing the fact that the Book of Judges is showing kind of a decline of spirituality of its people, including its leaders. And then what's consistent though, is God that his character is merciful, and that as the book starts out, you see God acting mercifully and in accordance with his word to the Judges, to the Israelites. But then as the book kind of shifts, you start seeing the leaders like Gideon acting mercilessly and unaware of the scriptures. And so when you get to Jeptha, you're showing not only the ignorance of the law, but his lawlessness in it. That doesn't jive not only with the at the plane reading the story like it's supposed to make you feel like what's going on, but that the Bible itself is teaching us to have a merciful posture that prioritizes human life and dignity.

00:03:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I thought that was a really helpful way of framing the law. I think, you know, you reference Dan Block's perspective on this and the way he addresses the Tora. But I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about why this is important, so you have I wouldn't say maybe you would, but like laws that stand intention and so you can imagine at some point, you know, it's almost like if we brought it into a contemporary example. You know, if you've got somebody in the car who's bleeding out, do you break the speed limit? And that's almost the sort of conundrum that you're trying to address here, like how do I care for a neighbor if I have to break a separate law? Like where do these two meet? And how do we resolve that tension? So maybe give a little bit of an introduction to that idea.

00:04:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's a great point, and it's actually commonplace in societies where you're gonna have two things that are in contrast and you have That's why we have judges. That's why we have like difficult cases that go to trial, is because you have two facets of a situation that aren't working well together. So for example, in the situation, we would say, of course we want to speed to get that person to the hospital. Like you see that with when I was born, I was almost born in the car, so my dad was breaking the speed limit to get there and we barely made it. So praise God, I'm here today because my dad bro the speed limit. But we have other situations like Jeff though where he made a vow is quite ill crafted because it said anything coming out of my house. And then you have a law basically that says don't sacrifice humans, and with that law you get a further clarification that it's in an abomination. So despite popular belief, there really is a ranking, I would say in the Old Testament of like what's particularly abhorrent to the Lord, and lack of dignity to human life is one of them. So then you kind of look at, well, what's competing do you want to sin by not fulfilling a vow, which is a very serious thing, you know, driving crazy over the speed limit is a very serious thing too, But trying to preserve a human life and getting to the hospital kind of outranks that. And so this is the same thing where the right thing to do for Jepsa would be to find a substitute. And we actually find that several times in scripture, in narratives we have with Saul, he wanted to sacrifice or kill his son because he had eaten unknowingly. That's right, And so what happens then is that the people, or you could maybe translate to the army, they say, hey, wait, he was the deliverer, the human deliverer behind this war, so we have to let's redeem him. And so they came up with a redemption solution.

00:06:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of. What's fascinating even about that narrative of Saul is you see these instances where Saul is constantly swayed by the people, and so the fact that the people are willing to redeem Jonathan speaks to in that instance at least their character. You know that they're moving saw towards something good, normally they're moving salt towards something kind of bad. And the rest of the book, and so you have these mixed motives. I mean, if we look at I'll be honest, I mean I thought through this a little bit with regard to Jeffa, and this notion that Jeftha not keeping his vow very well could have had consequences for Jeftha, although it wouldn't have had consequences then for his daughter. And so there is a sense in which I'd als sort of thought of Jeffa, as you know, his ambition to get back to a place where he thought he should be and you know, rule over Israel as Judge so clouded his judgment that he just goes through with it. And it's really an act of selfishness and you know, all the bad things that you can think of to ascribe to somebody, that's what Jeffa's doing in that moment. I hadn't really thought of it in terms of Gideon. And you do a lot of work in that Gideon narrative, and so maybe give a little bit of a parallel to what goes on with that Gideon narrative. After God, you know, does all these amazing things through Gideon, and he whittles his army down and he gets the victory, and then Gideon turns almost sadistic.

00:08:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if we think about the Gideon story, it's kind of two parts in A and a B. And the A part where we have our Sunday school stories. The best moments of Gideon, which I think are really positive, is where he's really good. And then it's almost sort of like a Chapter Jekyll to mister Hyde because he starts flipping. And that's how the book works. The book has Gideon at the center, and he's also the theological center. Of the book. Not page wise is he the center per se, but story wise he's the middle judge, and we end up having this pivot between fairly positive worship when the leader is with the Lord and early positive warfare and living and then you go and after that second half of Gideon, you start having like the negative warfare. So he's spoiler alert for those that haven't read that section of Gideon. A while. He he does civil warny, he tortures Israelites, and then and then he famously makes a cultic object and all israel it says, prostitutes after it. So he leads Israel into a snare of somewhat faulse or a technical term synchronistic worship, where they're worshiping the right God wrongly. And so Gideon stands at a very interesting spot in that book for that reason. And then the next story is Japtha. So not to get too much into the weeds, but what we say see in the beginning part of this story is God he goes to Jeptha, excuse me, he goes to Gideon and he's like, hey, go deliver Israel, and Gideon's like, hey, God, abandon us, and he doesn't realize that God is right there face to face with him, and then he is convinced he has to purify the group, so he kills the veil Altar and the astro policy he's ritually desecrating them and exalting the Lord. And then at that point it's so beautiful. I think it's often overlooked, is that God has Gideon, whose whole area was worshiping a false God. He honors them and lets them lead in the battle. They were just days ago wanting to kill Gideon because he tore down the veil structure. But God, God is merciful and he allows this like conversion to lead into the battle. But Gideon, on the other hand, when he says, hey, you people on the other side of the Jordan, I'm pursuing the bad guys that have been impressing us. They're life. We're not going on your side. You know when we'll give you food and will help you when you actually bring these people down, And he has no mercy for them, and he ends up saying, hey, you were on my side. I'm going to torture you and I'm going to kill all these these people in your town. He just didn't extend mercy like the Lord. So as the leader, when the story lines with what God was doing and what Gideon were doing were in line, Gideon doesn't act like God. And as leaders of God's people, you know him and then we, by extension as church leaders, should do that as well. So yeah, so then you just see Jeptha kind of acting selfishly and self interest.

00:12:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing I've always found, well, a couple of thoughts. So number one, this idea that you know, because the leaders aren't following through on God's mercy, I'm wondering, you know, as I'm thinking through the Gideon and the Jefa incident, and then I want to ask you about Samson at some point. But when you just look at the Gideon and the Jeffa incident, it feels like what's happening is both of them are stuck in a situation where they don't feel they have the option of loving neighbor. In other words, they they're trying to achieve something for whatever reason. Then they both have their different motivations, but love for neighbor doesn't seem like it's going to help them accomplish what they want to accomplish, and so they completely abandon right, and so God it's almost as if they forget God is there, which is really interesting and odd, I think in both stories because to your point, you know, Gideon starts there, then he has this miraculous victory where it's clear that God is present with him, and then he sort of falls into this problem. Jeptha is odd because even though God goes silent, right, sort of the last narrative thing we hear from God is you all wanted to worship your idols? Why don't you go ask them for help? As the readers know that God is going to help Israel, but Jetha really does seem to know and narrates the history of God's deliverance to his enemy, and so it's like he's aware that God has delivered ongoing, but then feels like he has to make this vow almost because as he gets closer and closer to battle, he's going, oh, man, I may not get this done. Is that sort of a fair way to understand what's going on here? That that that that absence of focus on the Lord, a lack of attentiveness to God and his presence, is driving now both of these characters to do things that simply because they don't think love of neighbor is going to get them done.

00:14:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really good observation on that, James. I I think you're right, because the spirit is already on Jeptha. The spirits come upon him when he makes the vow, and he kept saying when the Lord delivers. So I think I'm just going to go on a side note for sec I think this is why he can be in the Hall of Faith and Guinea is as well, because at as William Lane says, at the critical moment, they have extraordinary faith, and so does Stampson that you can tear down ahead of this. So at that point, like they we have that part going, but the love of the neighbor is is really not there. I think. Another scholar, Elias says he has a book entitled Self Interest Versus Communal Interest in these later narratives on judges, and it's basically that point that they've lacked the communal party. What I think happened is they're untethered to the word of God, and the word of God in Leviticus is saying, love your neighbor as yourself, and love the Lord your God with all your heart and so that's s Deuteronomy. So when you lose those core facets and don't know those other parts of the law, and it seems like the other people don't or are careless to the fact, that's when things just go wrong.

00:15:51
Speaker 1: And I find you know you mentioned the spirit coming upon Jeffa. I've had a number of conversations with students over the years as to why the spirit comes upon Jeffa and then he makes the vow, And a lot of students that I've taught wanted to make a causal connection between the spirit coming on Jeptha and then him making the vow, and my encouragement is, no, you actually should see this in a different way. It highlights that the vow is completely unnecessary. The spirit has come upon Jeffa to empower him to go and fight this battle, and he's going to win now. But Jeffa, in his zeal to get done what he's really looking to get done. I usually frame it as he's trying to piggyback. He's kind of, you know, sort of tie his ambitions to what God is going to do. Anyway, he makes this vow, and I said, if you reverse those if he made the vow, and then the spirit came on him. It would feel like a divine endorsement. But the way it's structured in the narrative, it's like, no, this is now just unnecessary. Is that how you'd kind of see that as well?

00:16:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it that way as well, because in the other stories you have the spirit upon them too, and like the spirits upon the individual, they're impelled and they're successful. It wasn't like our time or we always have the spirit. But I think going back to the student that you're talking to, one of the things I bring up with my students is we have the spirit, and sometimes we act in ways that are contrary. Or we have leaders that were like, how did this scandal happen with this leader? And we forget that even though there's the spirit, people can violate and quench the spirit. It's not exactly what's happening there in Judges. But yeah, I think the order is important to show that it was unnecessary and people have been looking at this for centuries. I was just reading kind of a reception history and even an art of how this issue has been debated.

00:18:00
Speaker 1: Interesting, So let me let me ask my Samson questions. So there's part of me. So Gideon torturing Israelites, right, Jeffa sacrificing his own kin, and then Samson pulling the pillars down, you know, and crushing the the I think I'm gonna get this right. I've been in for Samuel a little too much. Maybe Philistines? Am I right about that?

00:18:28
Speaker 2: Yeah?

00:18:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Samson crushing the Philistines, I'm seeing that as a completely different thing because you're dealing with Israelites versus Philistines. How do you how do you view that with Samson? Because he does some really I mean, Samson is just a crazy character anyway, Like he does a lot of different stuff. But yeah, how do you think about Samson from within this grid that you're providing.

00:18:57
Speaker 2: So Sampson he also has self interest because he's he's not interested in delivering Israel. So even when you read the text at the end, he's like, let me, let me tear this down to have vengeance on my eyes. You know, it's like all these people deserve to die because my eyes and and so God does it. I think here we see God's agenda is one thing, and the delivers agenda, the beginning of delivering is not into delivering but God's gonna use his request to fulfill his function, which was to show that he was more powerful than the other gods and accomplished in the beginnings. And I think it's a really sad commentary because I think the real key is the Gaza story. It's only a few verses. That's where he goes to a prostitute in the middle of the now and then partially leaves, and then to show off, he breaks the gates and has it open. So I like to talk to my students and others and say, okay, if you know Lord of the Rings, you know the Battle of Helm's deep, and you've got this orc and he's got that torch and he is charging and what do you see? The whole like everything focuses on that because you know, as soon as that gate comes, all the bad guys are going to storm the gate and everybody's going to be sacked. Is the normal process. But what does Sampson do. He goes to Hebron, and most of us are like, all right, he went to Hebron with the gates, and we think it's like just up the road. No, it's forty miles. As the crow flies, and so he never says, hey, everybody, let's storm the gates, you know, let's go in, let's deliver Israel. Like there's there's nothing. I mean, do you matter how many people would see him with those gates in forty miles? I don't care how much of a superman he is. You know, it's absurd he so cares nothing for delivering Israel. So I think that shows the progression of just God's prerogatives. Nothing. And in a similar story, just beforehand, the Judais are like, hey, don't you know that the Philistines are controlled? They have no desire for a hay stamps and do you want to try to deliver us? You're pretty strong either. So there's just no interest in God there, and it's culminated in I want to destroy these people from my eyes.

00:21:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a weird if Samson does exhibit almost like that anth degree of selfishness, even though he's the he's probably one of the more powerful judges that you see. I mean, he's got this extraordinary strength. Is really interesting, but ultimately he yeah, I agree, he doesn't seem to care about much of anything, and so the fact that he ends up destroying the Philostines at the end, do you see that as maybe quasi ironic, but also more as an outworking of God's sovereign deliverance despite Samson not tied necessarily to that love of neighbor bit.

00:22:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think he loves anybody really but himself. He I mean, his first marriage, he just kind of goes home and pouts and then comes back.

00:22:45
Speaker 1: Right.

00:22:47
Speaker 2: He's like I thought the father, I thought he hated her, and so yeah, it's just God, I think, despite Israel And interesting at the end of Jetsa, he there's a civil war against the civil war kind of happens at the end of Gideon, and it then goes to Jephtha and Jeffa's like killing of the Afriamites is one of the biggest losses that are in that passage, and they were the ones at the beginning of the book with Ehood that we're fighting off the Moabites. So it's it's kind of a sad commentary that you've got, like not only just stuff that kills his daughter, he kills a whole bunch of Israelites. Gideon started that a Bibili did some too, and then Samson he doesn't really kill a lot of Israelites. But he doesn't really do any delivery, right.

00:23:49
Speaker 1: It's almost like the people he kills, the things that he does, he's not at all motivated by any sort of deliverance of anybody. It's like these people are bob me, and now I'm going to do this extraordinary feat and they just happened. This just happens to move in the direction of God's deliverance, right, And it's coincidental almost.

00:24:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he doesn't even know when the spirit leaves him, when his eyes get couched out. And so I think that's a significant commentary on the sad state of his heart, that here he's got all this power that he can't even tell when it's when the Lord leaves him.

00:24:32
Speaker 1: So, when we're thinking about love of neighbor within the Book of Judges, maybe here's my question. When I read the Gospels and I see the the question being posed to Jesus which is the greatest commandment? And then you know, you get that part where it's like, well, then who is our neighbor?

00:24:52
Speaker 3: Right?

00:24:52
Speaker 1: I think the way I've understood that is you go back to Leviticus and you see within Leviticus sixteen, I think I'm getting right that that we have, you know, one command to love our neighbors ourselves that's related to fellow Israelites, and one command that is to love our neighbors as ourselves related to the sojournals living among us. And so it seems to me that within the Gospel's context, what we're really getting is where we just talking Israelites, where we're talking everybody here Jesus, Like, what does that look like? And so I'm wondering within the Book of Judges, do you see that dynamic yet or is the Book of Judges a little bit more like maybe like what we've seen in Fir Samuel, where David throughout the book generally stays away from harming Israel as close as it gets as J'ariah the Hittite, who arguably is more of a true Israelite than David is in that instance, but he's still you know, it's emphasized as a Hittite. So I'm wondering how that plays itself out in the Book of Judges.

00:25:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Judges is unique because not entirely unique, because there's continuity, But Judges is about the failure of Israel to prioritize Yahweh and their worship and then eradicate the false worship and through warfare. So I think what happens is in that promised land, Canaanite worship is not allowed, and so we only really see Rayhab who converts in that time period of the conquest and settlement. But it does show the heart that if you convert, you're fine. But to apply it to Israel going like other nations, if you're in the in the Israelite land and you're worshiping other gods, then you have put yourself under God's wrath and so you should be eradicated. So when you're looking at Canaanites, at least from a Juterimistic rating applying Deuteronomy type thinking petitude to the text, then those people, if they're not showing any desire towards conversion to Yahwehism, then they they're up for for death penalty being in God's sacred land, in sacred space. When you go outside of the land, things are different. And I actually think in the Gideon story it's not entirely clear, but I it seems questionable or at least ambiguous. When Gideon goes really far outside of the promised Land to go and defeat the Midianites. At that point, they're fleeing. They're not Canaanite, they're not a threat. So to me, it seems like and God's not speaking at that point either. In the text, it seems like he's gone too far beyond because they're not a threat anymore. Yeah, So I don't think he needed to go that far. I could be wrong. There's not much in the text that would suggest what he did was right other than he had success. It could it could be that he was right. It doesn't really seem very right. It was little ambiguous, Yeah, ambiguous, and I lean towards it doesn't fit well with the the laws on warfare.

00:28:40
Speaker 1: So if we were to just to give people handles, and I don't think these are you know, the most accurate categories. Maybe, But what we're looking at really is if Joshua is the conquest, Judges is more like dealing with the settlement or the tail end of the conquest somehow, like how we describe that.

00:29:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in the Book of Joshua, you have like several areas that are kind of getting conquered or taken over, but there's still a lot that needs to be defeated, and so the Israelites are needing to extend into other areas in their warfare. But it's mostly them starting to settle. But the text does say like there's going to be warfare in there because Joshua ended there's still much land, and Judges says, you know, go out and extend the land. And a huge motivation is about worship. I actually think the book's more about worship than warfare. I think warfare is a manifestation of prepper worship in that context.

00:29:50
Speaker 1: And so my aity, No, I mean, I mean, I get where you're coming from with that. So maybe that is this what you mean by that? Maybe I should just I'll ask the question. So, because you're in the land and this is supposed to be sacred to the Lord, devoted to the Lord, the warfare is a mechanism by which we get false worship out of the land so that we can engage in true worship of the Lord. Now, even though that never exactly works itself out, especially that latter part. What we see in the warfare is this attack on idolatry, and in some interesting way, I mean, how does that play out in those back portions of Gideon, where is he not addressing some of the idolatrous practice of the Israelites in that moment and then just taking it too far. So in other words, it's like he's he's choosing to engage in something that is not worshipful, using warfare in a way that is not worshipful, in attacking his fellow Israelites. Kind of how you'd explain it.

00:31:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just they hadn't They just weren't on his side one hundred percent. They weren't helping him. And so it's very interesting at the being in the book, after the long list of hey you in chapter one, there's a long list of of of like battle Area's conquest and not and and the Angel of the Angel of the Lord, the Messenger of the Lord, let's say, says you have not obeyed my voice. And it's related to worship. You've not kept you know. It's it's like you haven't done these these worship things. And so the Israelites there, their crime is they didn't align with with Gideon to give him provisions. He didn't say anything about worshiping the Lord. And then Gideon, like in that section at the beginning of judges. It's like you're supposed to tear down the cultic the sacred site. That's it. Yes, And what does Gideon do? He are rats a something that's to the Lord, but not the way the Lord would want it. Just like Gideon worshiped the Lord in a desecrated manner, which Deuteronomy says is like the Canaanites. So him Gideon making this this cultic Ephai, which is some sort of auricular like an oracle thing, which is you get your oracles from a prophet, you get it from the Orient and thumime that's in Samuel a good bit.

00:32:35
Speaker 1: That's it.

00:32:36
Speaker 2: Those are your options from the Lord. And he's doing it like kind of his own way. And and so again it's he didn't do warfare with the Israelites like God's said. God says, when you hurt a city, tear it down or destroy it, it's because they're acting in false worship. And that's not what.

00:32:57
Speaker 1: Happened in this case. They're just not aligning with him. It's an act of I need to be in control of this whole thing, and if you're not with me or against me, as opposed to reading that through more covenantal framework and saying, no, if you're engaged in right worship, maybe some of the things I'm doing are apparent.

00:33:16
Speaker 2: Right, and who knows what their worship was, guessing it wasn't the greatest, but we don't know, right, Yeah.

00:33:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes more sense. I get Yeah. I like that a lot. I think that framing actually works really really well. So let me ask one sort of last question. So most of my work has been really more on the first Samuel side, and so you have sort of Samuel as sort of quasi the last judge I suppose of Israel, Right, But you have this dynamic where even before you know, you have Eli, and Eli's sons take kind of taking over, and then you have Samuel replace them. And then when the Israelites finally reached their breaking point, it's because Samuel's sons are doing these horrible things in Israel. And so the only judge that I can remember in Judges having a son take over is Gideon. Correct. Right, It's not like a generational succession thing. It's a God raises up the judge, and there isn't a genealogical linkage necessarily between who is before and who's next. How does that, for one, how does that little snippet of Gideon's sun taking over for him change things? And do you see any connection between that and Jeff the sacrificing his only shot at an air that could take over for him.

00:34:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I I the connection between the sons and daughter. I would just say, is you start getting a theme with Gideon of progeny dying out. So you've got like all his sons but one. Basically it's like his whole line is wiped out because this one acted unlawfully and and killed seventy brothers. Bien alike actually acts instead of like a judge, he's actually a shawl, which is a ruler. He's actually given the title that's like kind of a king. And then he also is more of an oppressor than a deliverer in the story. If fits that role. So you see the children dying off, you end up. I think so at the end of Judges, some people say there's no king in Israel refers to there's no king, but even yahweh it's a popular evangelic with you, but I think it also is there's no physical Yeah, I think the plane reading there is an accurate reading and so I think it's showing the chaos. There's no gymnastics succession, right, and the person writing is whenever they're writing, they've seen good and bad kings. There's only eight good kings in Israel's history. So even write all problems with monarchy, it still is a better option than like the wild wild West, so to speak. There's no success there. These people aren't really functioning well. They're not making Yahweh center or or caring about the things of God and loving their neighbors very well.

00:36:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean that first Emuel twelve where Samuel goes back and eventually tells Israelize that they're going to get a king. What I've always found fascinating is he basically says, yeah, you can have your king, but the problem remains the problem you've always had, Like you know, because he says, if you will fear the Lord and keep his commandments, all will go well with you. But now your king also has to do that too, And so you're not changing the game here, you're just rearranging the pieces on the board. Putting someone in this role doesn't solve the problem. Like you all have the same obligations and responsibilities you always had. Now you just have a king over you, right, And so I think you're right. I mean, I think that they're struggling with this idea of they're just the chaos reigns, and some of that has to do with there's no king over Israel. And maybe at the end of Judges, like the way I would tend to read that last line isn't not even the Lord is the king. What I was sort of always thought was it was gesturing toward more of a messianic push, right, that that you know, you have this projection toward like there is a ruler who can fix so much of this. It's not about shifting from a no kingship to kingship, and we think the shifting governance is going to help us, But it's more like there's a projection toward that Messianic king. I don't know how you feel with that, but you know.

00:38:12
Speaker 2: I think if you have that chrystological push, there's there's also there's no deliverer like the Lord Jesus Christ, right, And we see all these human deliverers are just, but even the best of them, Ye, are our flawed in some way or or need assistance? From from a helper. You know, it's Deborah and Baroque that deliver. And so I think when we read, you know, always looking to the fact that we have this divine human, the Lord Jesus Christ, that's that's going to That is the solution I think is a solid red.

00:38:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, because even if you wanted to go to like a David or a Solomon, sort of have to admit that as faithful as they were, they got their problems. I mean, yeah, Solomon basically did everything that Samuel said a king would do, and he wasn't saying that in glowing terms, and so you kind of sit back and you're like, Okay, that's uh, that's what it was. Right, Well, this has been really good. We're kind of coming close to the end of time here. You've done a lot of work in the Book of Judges. What do you think, just you know, for everyday Christian approaching the Book of Judges, any advice on how to approach it or what message to really look for if they read it, you know, what's a what's a recurring theme that would help them get their hands around this book?

00:39:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, all have sinna come short of the story of God.

00:39:49
Speaker 3: So I think if you read it looking so the author and then and the way he narrates, he doesn't say, oh, by the way, this is wrong.

00:40:02
Speaker 2: So the book is written really interestingly, it's written if if you know the law, you'll be able to interpret it well because you'll see the incongrities. So it's almost like he who has ears to hear, let him hear the trouble with us as New Testament more oriented for Christians, we don't know those laws too well. So just don't take it as oh, this happened. The narrator didn't say anything bad about it, therefore it's fine or good. So kind of just look at it as it's going progressively down deborn Barack shining moment. Other than that, not so much.

00:40:43
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:40:44
Speaker 2: So, and it's God's saying, this is what happens when people don't follow me. They're gonna fill in their worship their warfare. You're gonna have waning leadership. It's just a disaster.

00:40:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. And in the treatment of it's a picture.

00:41:04
Speaker 2: Worship, WoT worship, women, waning leadership.

00:41:08
Speaker 1: Waning leadership. There you go, it's four ws. I like it, Yeah, I mean, it's it's a picture of what happens when we try to run things ourselves. It's like, that's helpful. I like that women warfare, worship, and waning leadership, waning leadership. I think I got all four. That's great.

00:41:25
Speaker 2: Well, Jillian, thanks joing to be here.

00:41:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been awesome and this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate being on the show today.

00:41:32
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for having me.

00:41:34
Speaker 1: All Right, everybody, we'll call it quits there and we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian Take care of Everybody. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.